MLB Civil Rights Game (I refussed to go)

[1inStripes]

Those soundbites have been post Manilla though.

[Gotch]

Frazier's dislike of Ali stems from Ali's refusal to back off from the "uncle Tom" rhetoric and other potentially harmful statements Ali was making in reference to Frazier during a volatile time, even after Frazier attempted to explain to him in friendly terms that he was becoming afraid for the safety of his children. Not only did Ali ignore his pleas, according to Frazier he intensified the attacks.

Only a person unfamiliar with the original and only real "Sugar Ray" could claim he wasn't the best ever. Ray Robinson was 84-0 as an amateur and only lost once in his first 131 pro fights (to Jake LaMotta -who Robinson beat 5 times). This means he lost 1 time in 215 fights.

Ray Robinson could stand in front of you and beat you senseless without ever stepping out of range the way Ali and Ray Leonard would. It's all about angles, proper footwork will allow you to land with leverage while your opponent cannot land back with any authority due to the angle you have on him. Ray Robinson was the master of this. Moving in and out of range has more to do with athleticism than boxing skill.

"Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."—Sugar Ray Leonard

"Without a doubt the greatest pound for pound fighter that ever lived."—Jake LaMotta

"The king, the master, my idol."—Muhammad Ali

Ring Magazine ranks him number one all-time
Bert Sugar ranks him number one all-time
Ali, Leonard, and LaMotta rank him number one of all-time
I feel pretty comfortable in being in agreement with them.

I didn't say that Ali was necessarily number 12 or 13 ever, just somewhere around there without counting names. If forced to do so, I'd say that besides Robinson, Harry Greb was better than him pound for pound for sure, so was Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, and Mickey Walker. You could make an argument for Tony Canzoneri, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Joe Gans, Willie Pep, Jack Johnson, Jimmy Wilde, and Barney Ross. You could even make some case for guys like Gene Tunney, Joe Walcott (not Jersey Joe - the original)Johnny Dundee, Roberto Duran and Rocky Marciano.

There is a lot more to boxing than the past 40/50 years.

[Gotch]

Ali's record was only 56-5, and he had a couple of decisions that could have gone the other way, Jimmy Young comes to mind.

I not saying that he wasn't great, just not close to "the greatest". I mean Leon Spinks beat him? There is no way I am going with a guy who lost to Leon Spinks over a Ray Robinson or a Henry Armstrong....no way.

Here is an example of how I think boxing history has been twisted by the mass media. Roberto Duran...say the name and what comes to mind? No Mas!!!!! of course.

What should come to mind is a guy who won 74 of his first 75 fights against some of the best lightweights ever. He was 73-1 when he fought Leonard the first time and he was already moving up 13 pounds above his prime weight, and he won. He beat Leonard the first time despite being naturally the smaller guy. The whole no mas thing is ridiculous. The man was one of the greatest fighters ever, you can't judge his whole career on that one night anymore than you can judge Ali's on the night he lost to Leon Spinks!?!?! At least Duran lost to another great fighter.

[Monkeyhead]

Ali's record was only 56-5, and he had a couple of decisions that could have gone the other way, Jimmy Young comes to mind.

I not saying that he wasn't great, just not close to "the greatest". I mean Leon Spinks beat him? There is no way I am going with a guy who lost to Leon Spinks over a Ray Robinson or a Henry Armstrong....no way.

Here is an example of how I think boxing history has been twisted by the mass media. Roberto Duran...say the name and what comes to mind? No Mas!!!!! of course.

What should come to mind is a guy who won 74 of his first 75 fights against some of the best lightweights ever. He was 73-1 when he fought Leonard the first time and he was already moving up 13 pounds above his prime weight, and he won. He beat Leonard the first time despite being naturally the smaller guy. The whole no mas thing is ridiculous. The man was one of the greatest fighters ever, you can't judge his whole career on that one night anymore than you can judge Ali's on the night he lost to Leon Spinks!?!?! At least Duran lost to another great fighter.

What do you think Duran's chances would have been in their second fight if he were to come in ready to fight and not just looking for a payday?

[1inStripes]

Rocky Marciano!

[Gotch]

What do you think Duran's chances would have been in their second fight if he were to come in ready to fight and not just looking for a payday?

Duran's real problem in that fight was his weight believe it or not. You had a guy who had dominated at 134 but since the fight was at 147 he stopped monitoring his weight, thinking it wouldn't be a problem. As time for the weigh-ins approached he was pretty far over. He went like 3 days without eating anything in order to make weight.

Then he was so hungry that as soon as he made weight he rushed out and gorged himself. I've heard that he ate like 3 steaks and 3 baked potato's a bunch of bread, a salad, and some other stuff. In the ring he became rather ill, not surprisingly.

btw, both Duran and his corner people deny to this day that he ever said "no mas". They agree that the translation of what he told the ref would be "my stomach is hurting too much".

As far as who would have won had Duran taken care of his weight? Not sure really. I know that Duran is without a doubt among the top 15 fighters ever at any weight and probably the greatest lightweight ever. Of course this wasn't at lightweight, it at welterweight. A good indication of just how tough Duran was would be his loss to Marvin Hagler. Duran was well over the hill, fighting at 26 pounds over his prime weight and facing one of the greatest middleweights ever, and gave him a great fight.

[Gotch]

Here is a story I've heard from more than one old time boxing guru.

Apparently Joe Louis, despite a couple of public comments to the contrary, didn't have a very high opinion of Ali as a person or a fighter. Ali, who was almost at the end of his own career met with an aging and frail Louis. After a few somewhat pleasant words Louis looks him in the eye and says :

"You know son, when I was a young man I went on what we called the bum of the month tour."

There was a fairly long, somewhat uncomfortable silence as a confused Ali pondered what the heck this was suppose to mean. Finally Ali asked:

"Are you calling me a bum?"

The aging Louis mumbled

"you'd hav' been on the tour"

I can't say for sure if the story is true, but judging from what Frankie Cain and other say about Louis and taking into account that more than one boxing old-timer has told it as true I tend to think that it might be.

[Biggin]

all those old fighters cant hold a candle to the fighters post 1950, aside from Louis and Dempsey.

the level of competiton was so poor back then, its not fair to say duran is top five, who did he ever fight? he lost to the two best fighters he fought, and in the most famous act of his career, he did not go back out to fight leonard.

its impossible to say those old fighters are as tested and good as fighters now;

theres no doubt that Mike Tyson would have destroyed Jack Dempsey;
i feel confident Bernard Hopkins or Paciquoa would beat Duran.

[Biggin]

and if you are going by records, which you have a lot in this thread,

what about Floyd Mayweather? he hasnt lost, so is he the greatest fighter ever?


you cant contradict yourself here, you say duran is great because of his record, if thats the case, then FMM should be the greatest of all time.

[1inStripes]

49-0 43 KOs.